Safe Speed Forums

hi all,
I have been made aware of a case, where a patient transport ambulance was lti'ed and stopped at the scene.
As we all know there are 'issues' with the Lti, the driver and her solicitor are looking into the possibility of slip errors on slabsided fibreglass vehicles. They will also look into RTRA S.87.
Anything else they should being looking at.
fatboytim

Police aim at the number plate because it has a very high reflective rate.
the blue yellow flash stripes on the ambulance make it an ideal vehicle for slip error

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

That sir, is a very good point!

If said LTi is pointed directly onto number plate as is recommended then how can slip come into it, from my experience of useing it I only point it straight not at any angle which would cause the machine to error.

If this none emergency and possibly none emergency response PTS driver is exceeding the speed limit by an excessive amount then he deserves to get prosecuted, as he is entrusted with these people / patients to get them from a to b safely not quickly.

If however he was on a life or death scenario then that is different but I would think not, 99% of emergency ambulance trained drivers that I see drive within the limits when travelling from a to b why should this one bring the good reputation of the other emergency ones down.

Lets find out how fast over the limit he was actually travelling and whether he had patients on board or not and if he has had any advanced training not just a basic none emergency driving course which most of them only have, before we start a debate on these fine men and woman who on the whole do a grand job whether we think so or not.
Stephen

I have seen a fair few LTI tapes. and at short range they can be quite accuate. however some opperators flit from car to car and lane to lane, also at much longer distances. One of the cases I became involved with was correctly dropped because the reading was moving around to the extemities of the car and the reading may have come as the beam slipped from the car to reflective paint behind, on the road rather than the car.

I identified the problem within the second viewing of the tape, police and cps did not admit it untill 4 court hearings and expert witnesses had been involved

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

and i thought the reg was targeted for identification purposes

_________________
now retired

From the scant information I have the ambulance, was targeted and the car immediately behind both showed the same speed on the hand held lti.
Surely if the officer was to target the car behind he would have to pan down the side ambulance, this obviously begs the question, when exactly did the officer pull the trigger.

stephen said
"If this none emergency and possibly none emergency response PTS driver is exceeding the speed limit by an excessive amount then he deserves to get prosecuted, as he is entrusted with these people / patients to get them from a to b safely not quickly."

RTRA Part vi Sec.87 says
"87. Exemption of fire brigade, ambulance and police vehicles from speed limits
No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion."

It does not mention emergency, it is exactly the same legislation that gives you and your colleagues exemption. How quick is your force (MP, CP or GMP?) to target let alone prosecute drivers of any police vehicle marginally execeding the limit. From my experience the police vehicles on transport or general patrol do 28mph in a 30 to be pompous or 40 with a sly smile as they pass you.

fatboytim

PTS vehicles are not emergency vehicles therefore dont fall into the exemption category of emergency vehicles. fatboy don't post half the information and expect to get a full answer as it's impossible to make any experienced judgement on individual cases like this.
Stephen

Surly Stephen that is not the words used in the legislation.

Secondly the CPS is ignoring the public interest test in prosicuting motorists.

Is it in the public interest to prosicute every single "offence" including volunteer patient transport, fire engines returning to base or a gasboard driver reparing a gas leak at 4am?

What happens when these people stop doing the unsociable tasks?

The bigest obsticle to me driving the MS Society minibus is I dont want to drive on unfamiliar roads with all the cameras. The result is we don't have a driver for the MS minibus.

_________________
Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Further information would be very helpful, but as they were stopped at the scene the implication is that it was a handheld LTI 20-20, that the vehicle was travelling towards the speed gun and was probably at a substantial range when recorded.

In particular it would be useful to know if it was handheld at what range the speed gun was used and if there was any video of photograph recording of the event, in which case the Data Protection Act could be used to obtain a copy of that information.

If the LTI 20-20 was used at a range of about 500m, or more, then it has been found that with a handheld gun it is, in practice, not possible to reliably hold it sufficiently still.

If this was with a handheld LTI 20-20 at a range of about 500m then I ask if you could please let me know, as we are pursuing a number of cases to try to stop the LTI 20-20 being used in such circumstances where the instrument is known to be unreliable.

The law just says 'ambulance, police or fire brigade purposes', it mentions nothing about emergencies. The police rely on this clause every day and to start denying it to others would be apalling hypocrisy.

Dr L,
unfortunately I have very few details, as it was a solicitor who asked if I new an expert, and gave a brief outline of the situation, I have given him Dr. Clark's contact details.
The ambulance was in traffic, not much over the threshold, and the car behind was also stopped, it is alleged at exactly the same speed.
This is Merseyside Police, I'm pretty sure they use the Lti (though to be fair they don't use it very often..yet). It sounded like the cop was on the kerb, zap 1 zap2 step out and stop both vehicles so I guess less than 500m.

Stephen,
I posted the letter of the Law, the Law you have sworn to enforce/maintain.
If this is your personal view, I respect your views on the rights and wrongs of the situation (but may not agree with them).
I hope your professional actions would reflect the Law as it is written.

fatboytim

Basically I was trying ask, do the posters think that the slab side of an ambulance would be a good surface to produce a slip error, as the device would have to pan down the side of the ambulance to get from the front of it, to the front of the car behind, and hence it's worth Dr Clarks' attention.
Or, should I have left them to S87 only.
fatboytim

Although I sympathise with drivers who volunteer for work taking the sick and vulnerable about, you are tasked to drive them legally not break the law. If you are asking should you be exempt under the RTA emergency vehicles act, then no, as you do not have any emergency equipment fitted to your vehicle, and not undergone training in the circumstances, if however during the PTS duties he has a patient on board who suddenly takes ill and has to break the speed limit for this reason then as far as I am concerned if it is me who stops the vehicle and this is stated to me then they will be allowed to continue on there journey without any hinderence or prosecution. But if they are just travelling from A to B then the exemptions are not for this, the same goes for anyone who is using there vehicle for life or death situations then each case has to be viewed and judged on its merits as it happens. Were you present when the PTS driver was stopped and heard the conversation, as it would seem that the reason given to the officer at the time did not validate a reason for exemption, and the officer felt it necessary to proceed, from my experience of these cases there is two sides to a story and at present we have only heard one . As you posted Fatboytim "If the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion." was it an emergency or a routine A to B drive answer that and youve answered the question should he be punished im sure we are all dying to know if the exemption is just.
One last thing if I speed when not on a call then any NIPs etc that come in for me I have to justify or face the consequences, I am not a hypocrite I practise what I preach the same as I dont expect people to travell at 30mph however exceed it excessive and you will pay the price. my honest opinion.
Stephen

Stephen said
"If you are asking should you be exempt under the RTA emergency vehicles act".
I'm sorry I can't find any reference to this could you direct me.

Apart from S87, these are the other exemptions
The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations 1997 give qualified exemptions from signals at puffin and pelican crossings to vehicles used for fire brigade, ambulance, national blood service and police purposes, and the Traffic Signs Regulations 2002 give similar qualified exemptions from other red light signals and keep right/left arrows to vehicles being used for fire brigade, ambulance, bomb or explosive disposal, national blood service or police purposes.

I would very much like to see the 'RTA Emergency Vehicle Act'

fatboytim

p.s. I notice you guys are always last in the list

One last thing if I speed when not on a call then any NIPs etc that come in for me I have to justify or face the consequences.

What do you consider justification,
taking a prisoner to the station?
attending drunk teenagers in the park?,


I am not a hypocrite I practise what I preach the same as I dont expect people to travell at 30mph however exceed it excessive and you will pay the price. my honest opinion.

Disregarding our understanding/s of excessive.
I always endevour to drive within posted limits (I'm regularly in N.Wales) sometimes this feels very un-natural but I watch my speedo rather than the road. I also know that some roads have no posted limit at all.

fatboytim

FBT: Tell the solicitor or, better, tell him to tell the driver, to join here and PM either Dr L or me. Our rates are both orders of magnitude lower

FBT,
Would the observence of a speed limit have impeded the progress of the PTS vehicle if on an emergency. As stated in sec 87 RTA which you posted as I said before answer the question to that and you will have your answer to whether he would have been exempt or not, remember sometime ago a west yoorkshire paramedic who got prosecuted for travelling at three figures whilst delivering a kidney or something he used this act, but what is the comparison none one trying to save life fact, the other as far as I can see at the moment delivering patients from hospital appointments. get your facts and information right before you try and defend something that is not worth defending. RTRA Part vi Sec.87 says
"87. Exemption of fire brigade, ambulance and police vehicles from speed limits
No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion."
Stephen

Stephen,
I've been waiting for you to actually read what i posted CLANG (penny dropping).
"purpose for which it is being used on that occasion" it took you a while but, this is a decision and opinion of the Magistrates (as persuaded by arguement).
It does not define purpose as an emergency,
getting the patients home in time for their tea, as some are diabetic may be considered an acceptable purpose,
A patient has soiled themselves, and getting them home for their comfort and dignity may be an acceptable purpose,
The ambulance is full of sick people, who are best cared for at the hospital or home, it is everyones interest this is done swiftly and safely, may be considered an acceptable purpose.

Why do the Police ecsort, some prison transport vehicles (privatised I think) to court, thru red lights and at above posted speed limits does this "save life".
Why do the police, blue light prisoners (handcuffed and in a locked cage) back to the 'Custody Suite' does this "save life" .
At the end of the day it will be the arguments of the advocates that persuade the Mags, it is not as black and white as you first tried to 'inform' the members, it my may make your professional life more difficult that the 'tinternet' gives the public access to the word of the law, but, think of the pension.

They could use the 'Milton Defence' "I was testing the vehicles capabilities, so should a passenger take ill, I would be able to get the to A&E swiftly and safely". IIRC He was found guilty not of speeding but DD, so it seems the court have accepted this exemption on non 'emergencies'. As the S87 applies equally to FB, Amb or Pol.

Perhaps I should apply to become a Magistrate.

Fatboytim

Perhaps you should if you do then good luck.
Stephen