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Dixie
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 16:32 
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BBC News

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Dangerous drivers 'get licences'

A legal loophole allows potentially dangerous learner drivers to get licences, the BBC has discovered.
In August, 2005, Chantelle Burridge, 17, was killed in an accident where the driver had nine penalty points on his provisional licence.

However, the 20-year-old was still allowed to drive and passed his driving test five weeks before the accident.

The New Driver's Act 1997 puts all new drivers who pass their test on two years probation.

If they amass six penalty points in that time (rather than the normal 12), they will have their licence revoked.

However, there are no similar provisions for learners driving on a provisional licence.

Nick Freeman, a lawyer well known for defending high profile figures such as Ronnie O'Sullivan and Sir Alex Ferguson, told Radio 4's Law in Action: "It's a loophole that needs to be plugged.

"There isn't any fairness in the system when you can amass 11 points on a provisional licence, take the test and drive."

Change demanded

He added: "We need an amendment to the existing legislation. There should be parity with new drivers driving on a full licence."

Chantelle's father Martyn is pressing the Department for Transport for a change in the law.

He said: 'Whatever we do isn't going to bring Chantelle back but if you ban someone for six points once they've got their full licence, you should do the same if they get six points on a provisional."

He favours a three-year delay to the taking of a driving test for new drivers who get six points on a provisional licence.

The Department of Transport issued a statement which said: "The Department of Transport is looking carefully at whether there is a case for automatic disqualification of provisional licence holders before they accrue 12 points."

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jamie_duff
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 16:45 
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Does seem a rather odd state of affairs.

I do wonder who on earth must have been supervising this learner whilst he accrued all those points :shock:

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Sixy_the_red
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 16:46 
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Surely if someone's driving on a provisional car licence and therefore are supervised at all times then they shouldn't amass ANY points?!

It sounds draconian but I'd be in favour of zero tolerance on provisionals.

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PeterE
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 17:55 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Surely if someone's driving on a provisional car licence and therefore are supervised at all times then they shouldn't amass ANY points?!

S/he could have been riding a moped on their own. Someone I know received an NIP while riding a moped at the time he had a provisional car licence (although in this case he was allowed to take a speed awareness course, so didn't get any points).

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It sounds draconian but I'd be in favour of zero tolerance on provisionals.

Given that there are so many tales on here of arbitrary, marginal convictions, especially from Talivans, that seems rather harsh to me.

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anton
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 19:08 
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He may have obtained his 9 points for driving whilt not being supervised.

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Ernest Marsh
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 01:39 
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anton wrote:
He may have obtained his 9 points for driving whilt not being supervised.

Or he might have been warning other motorists of a speed camera ahead! :roll:

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g_attrill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 14:25 
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Also I'm not sure what people are suggesting should happen - revoke the provisional licence and make them apply for it again? Big hassle, a photo, a stamp, a few quid and a week or two later they are back on the road.

It should also be added that if a new driver gets caught speeding there are the following scenarios:

0 pts: They get 3pts, and have one more chance
3 pts: They get 3pts, revoked (if not previously revoked), new licence comes back with 6pts.
6 pts: They get 3pts, revoked (if not previously revoked), new licence comes back with 9pts.
9 pts: They get 3pts, revoked (if not previously revoked), and probably a totting ban.

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jamie_duff
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 14:41 
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I would suggest that any endorsements accrued on a provisional license should be carried forward to the full licence for the remainder of the endoresment term.

If a learner accrues 6 points or more then I fail to see how a license can be issued at all until time served?

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willcove
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 16:02 
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jamie_duff wrote:
I would suggest that any endorsements accrued on a provisional license should be carried forward to the full licence for the remainder of the endoresment term.

If a learner accrues 6 points or more then I fail to see how a license can be issued at all until time served?

AIUI, these rules for new drivers revoke their full license and return them to learner status until they have passed another test. Once they have passed that test, their license is restored and the counter to revokation reset. If during the two years (whether that's the next two years or the expiry of the original two years, I'm unsure) they accrue another six points, their license is again revoked. Of course, should they manage to ramp up enough points to make a dozen, they get banned the same as anyone else.

I cannot see the problem with the status quo. By passing a test, the new driver has demonstrated his/her competence (i.e. that they are capable of driving safely). A newly requalified driver with 9 points has only 3 points to go before disqualification - the same as anyone else on 9 points. Having proved they can drive safely, why should they be treated differently to anyone else?

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g_attrill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 13:24 
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jamie_duff wrote:
I would suggest that any endorsements accrued on a provisional license should be carried forward to the full licence for the remainder of the endoresment term.

If a learner accrues 6 points or more then I fail to see how a license can be issued at all until time served?


The points are indeed carried forward, the situation is that (as Will mentions), the revocation is only be carried out at the time of an endorsement and only *after* somebody has passed their first test. It would be silly to prevent people from taking a test because they have six points, because it is likely the person will simply drive illegally, when they were on the correct path to (somewhat) legal driving.

edit: I do agree that both the learner and supervisor are doing something wrong if the learner accrues points whilst on a provisional licence.
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Homer
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 01:30 
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Sixy_the_red wrote:
Surely if someone's driving on a provisional car licence and therefore are supervised at all times then they shouldn't amass ANY points?!


They may have gained the points before having any licence. How often have you heard of some teenage scrote getting six points for driving without a licence?
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anton
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 06:00 
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If you pass your test and get 6 points you are not banned. You just have to retake your test. once the test is retaken you can continue driving. There is no fixed ban period. If you get another 3 points do you have to take test number 3?

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“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code
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PeterE
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 08:46 
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anton wrote:
If you pass your test and get 6 points you are not banned. You just have to retake your test. once the test is retaken you can continue driving. There is no fixed ban period. If you get another 3 points do you have to take test number 3?

No, the points are wiped off so you start again with zero.

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g_attrill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 18:39 
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PeterE wrote:
anton wrote:
If you pass your test and get 6 points you are not banned. You just have to retake your test. once the test is retaken you can continue driving. There is no fixed ban period. If you get another 3 points do you have to take test number 3?

No, the points are wiped off so you start again with zero.


The points stay on the licence, so somebody who gets 6 points during their provisional period then 3 points after passing will have 9 points on their new licence when they pass their second test. The revocation only takes effect after passing the first test (car or bike) so if they got another 3 points then they might get a totting ban but not another revocation.
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