Safe Speed Forums

Quite, it may be for one person but not another. Which is why the best message to communicate to drivers is that they should have both hands on the wheel. Engage in any other activity not directly related to the control of your vehicle during the normal driving process and risk the consequences.

Uh oh, Johnsher and I appear to be agreeing wholeheartedly here, somethings wrong

I don't really get that though. Using an electric razor is about as difficult as clicking your fingers and can be stopped at any time.

I agree with the prosecution in this case because he should have had both hands on the wheel while overtaking, but I don't think the principle that two hands must always be on the wheel at all times should be accepted on faith.

So you never have to think about where you are moving it around your face to try and find the bits that still have fuzz on them?

Edit..Its not being accepted on faith, its being accepted as a common sense foundation for safe driving bearing in mind there are an enormous number of drivers with wildly differing skills and attitudes out there.

The only thing I am assuming is that driving at speed with one hand, holding an electric shaver in the other, looking at your face in the mirror, and concentrating on removing all of the stubble is extremely stupid and dangerous.

My mobile phone post was that I found a proper hands free phone was a skill that most people could learn just like talking to a pasenger. and that the conversation would be suspended when negotiating junctions in a similar manner.

For the record I have used hands free kit for 7 years. before that I used radios since 1983. I do not want to see responsible use of phones erased as it is an esential part of comminication with my other half who has MS. Some of the calls are a "change of pick up point". Some are "I have fallen over, help" Do you want these calls banned?

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

The looking in the mirror part I agree with. Very stupid.

what did you do before mobile phones?

well if you want an argument, we could always talk religion.

before using mobiles... she has fallen over in the street and sometimes be helped... some times walked past
changes in pickup point are because she stubbonly likes to go shopping alone and sometimes she cannot make it to the pre-aranged pick up point

either way the mobile phone makes life easier.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

I could shave in the dark with an electric razor.... OR while driving, but the end result would be a few long hairs which didn't make it through the foil, usually around the neck.
In other words, it would not be the same shave as one with a mirror and the lights ON or shaving while driving.
Driving would not be quite the same as when 100% of attention was given to it, and if an event occured in front, then reaction and thought process would suffer!

The fact that he leaned over to the mirror, seems to indicate that he was taking a close look at his shaving ability, NOT his driving.

He kind of admits he did this (leaning over bit), because he claimed it was to be able to see around some manequins in the back. if that was the case, then he should know better than to obscure his view with them in the first place.

This is not some council sink estate regular, this is a health and SAFETY expert - he should know better! COAST has gone out the window, because he has not left himself time to even shave PROPERLY, so THAT too is likely to impact on his driving!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I agree with you , but he deserved 3-5 points not a ban. My friend drove the wrong way on the right hand side of the road thinking she was on a duel carriageway and ended writing two cars off. she got 5 points despite being on 9 they ignored the first set and did not ban her. They should have sent her on 10 hours advanced driving course. But we don't do sensible things here, do we.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Yes, I agree too. Just to be clear, I'm not condoning the level of punishment, just the apparent proposal herein that if you appear to be able to conduct some secondary activity whilst driving, without wandering around all over the place, then you should be allowed to get on with it.

I suspect the ban was the result of his apparent efforts to excuse his driving, with the mannequine excuse, which was really just as silly.
However, we will probably never know without a better handle on his behaviour in court.

I still feel the judgement wording could have been better, so as not to give the impression that if you were not wandering, then it was OK to do something which might affect your driving - and clearly shaving while driving means you are at risk simply because you are short of time!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

The act of trying to drive with your hands tied behind your back is ample evidence of dangerous driving - but it's not the hands that really causes the danger; it's the insane thought process.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Why, exactly? How does shaving (with an electric shaver) cause an inherent deficiency in safe driving?

The point is that shaving, in itself, does not appear to require a driver to look at the wrong things or think about the wrong things. All we appear to have is driving one-handed (which is the normal mode for (perhaps) 100,000 successful taxi drivers).

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

What does having a shave whilst driving tell us about the attitude and demeanour of the individual? What does it tell us of the scores of individuals who may be tempted to do it as well That they are fully attentive to the task? Constantly applying the principles of COAST? Observant of any hazards, and adequately prepared?




Driving one handed is not the same as using a shaver whilst driving one handed. This is the same as the "whats the differene between talking to a passenger and talking on a mobile" argument. Therese a difference, so the point is that occupying oneself with a task not immediately concerned with the process of driving, is bound to cause a distraction to one extent or another. Perhaps to a lesser extent to you or other advanced drivers, but across the board the total distraction will be tangible.

Best course of action = discourage secondary activities, encourage fully attentive driving.

While I understand Paul's point that it's the unsafe driving outcome that is the issue, I cannot support any diversion of attention from the driving task for any spurious reason like shaving and I think RigPig's last sentence sums it up well.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I really don't think it tells us much. It might tell us that an individual believes that he has capacity in reserve, which may well be true in lower stress driving situations.



The mobile argument is a red herring because we know that there's a substantial 'mental' distraction in mobile phone conversations.

I agree about the dangers of 'incremental' losses of attention across a large population (See the micrometric influence brainstorming thread.)

But honestly, I'm having very considerable difficulty in finding a significant loss of attention associated with shaving. I shave. I DO NOT think about it (with any identifiable resources).



Absolutely - but is this a good way to use the law? The right messages about attitude and responsibility are vital - but the law is unlikely to affect attitudes for the better.

The trouble is that it's another poxy proxy. The authorities are saying: we don't understand safe driving as a mental process, so make sure you keep two hands on the wheel. This is a huge miss on the real target.

[And I'd like to restate that I don't believe that I know enough to really comment on the original case in this thread. My comments are general.]

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'll wager that some part of your mental process is tied up with the task. How much could only be determined through scientific trial.



The real target may simply be far too difficult to hit in real world situations bearing in mind the sheer number and diversity of individuals that need to be reached. Perhaps this is the best fit we can ever realistically achieve in the real world.

Agreed. (But I'm pretty sure it's pretty tiny! )



NOooooo! We can do a million times better than this (at least!). There's so much in our work here and in the MIND DRIVING book to help us do it so much better.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety