Safe Speed Forums

Another Pistonheads discussion:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... 373729&p=2 (requires free registration).

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

agree 100%.

but furthermore, most normal people are (were) aware that your own attitude can have a bearing on the severity you're dealt with, so it's in peoples intrest to be polite and understanding when they're pulled over. Most people on here are pretty clued up and I suspect a good number have been let off with a "don't let me catch you again" for some minor misdemeaner. The effect of this is we learn by rote respect for the law, that they are human and will show reason and consideration in applying their powers, which I daresay helps when the police need cooperation of the public in other matters. One might have been "let off" an offence but has been educated.

cameras apply the opposite- the law is enforced without compassion or mitagion, it's an emotionless & totalitarian machine. People will remember this when dealing with the law, in all it's representations.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

I am appalled that an officer should allow something like that to influence his judgement about a motoring offence.

Either the driving deserved a ticket or it did not.

If the officer was offended by the drivers behaviour after the motoring offence had been committed he should have raised a charge under the public order act.

That's interesting (seriously).

I'm not. It seems to me that the law must find a way to distinguish between those who respect society's norms and those who do not. One such way - inevitably and unavoidably - will be by the snap judgement of a Police Officer. Since such a thing cannot be prevented, we should instead attempt to ensure that sound judgements are made. Indeed, it's in significant part the quality of those judgements that made our Police the envy of the world.

What about my reply in the first post? Do you agree that Police discretion is our best first line of defence against the law is an ass?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

IMO if an officer stops a vehicle then there must be a reason, i have been stopped breathalysed - straight green quick vehicle check and plod bids a goodnight, ok a bit pi##ed off with being stopped but at the end of the day they are only doing their jobs,

i am quite friendly with 2 brothers both police officers, 1 traffic 1 CID so can i think speak for them

with motoring offences then yes they will use their discretion, i doubt very much if an officer will stop a car find out there is no tax no insurance and let the driver off, my traf pol mate was saying that he stopped a car where the driver was on his mobile, first words the driver said were along the lines of have you not got anything better to do , go and catch burglars, a bit of a red rag to the bull

so you'd put up with it in your courtroom would you? And in a case like this where the guilty party was showing no remorse you wouldn't be the slightest bit tempted to handout a little more than the minimum penalty on offer?

Like Paul, I find this an interesting point of view. My take on the discretion argument runs something like this...

There are three states a driver can be in when observed by a trafpol:

1. Behaving in a manner which gives them no reason at all to pull you over.
2. Behaving in a manner which is, at least, just far enough over the line of reasonable behaviour for them to feel that it's worth pulling you in for a quick talking to, but not so far over the line as to cross into state 3.
3. Behaving in a manner which is bang out of order and is worthy of nothing less than immediate issuing of NIP or arrest.

Discretion comes into play only in state 2 - yes, you've technically broken the law, but not to the extent that any real benefit will be gained by penalising you with fine/points/jail, so if the officer can get away with a firm but friendly bit of lecturing which might actually have some positive effect on the way that driver then behaves in future, job done.

Now, imagine the officer has made the pull and is thinking "yep, a quick chat about keeping your vehicle properly maintained/keeping your speed down on this kind of road/keeping an eye out for other road users/etc should be enough to make them see sense", only to then be faced with a barrage of verbal abuse from the driver... IMO if someone exhibits that sort of attitude right from the off, then I have no difficulty in understanding why the officer would immediately change their mind about thinking a quick lecture might have any effect.


Bear in mind that being pulled and given the lecture isn't the same as getting away with it - you might not have been penalised in a tangible way (fine/points etc) but you have had to sit there for however many minutes, all the time on your best behaviour making sure you don't say or do anything that will result in the lecture turning into something more serious.

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Chris

With all due respect Fisherman.........what do you know about the Public Order Act?

Paul.......common sense as always, I've been away too long.......

You've only got yourself to blame. Welcome back.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Only a copper could be up (and sober!) at 0220 on a Sunday morning!!

Or a full time campaigner, of course.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Having had to read your post twice (just to make sure I understood it right) I am in total agreement Paul.
And if anyone is in any doubt as to how well our own police deal with such 'crap' from the public, pop over to the continent and try chopsing off to a German police officer

Or a Swiss one..

Politeness beget politeness though .. und respect beget respect... und lead to human und professional judgement which ist what we understand by "discretion und a pleasant chat".

But Swiss/German/French nationals can und do pass similar "attitude tests" und liaise naturally und respectfully with the police und gendarme...but ist part of knowing the lingo und culture as well. British unfortunately do tend to shout in English thinking this make someone who has no clue what they on about understand them Just a quiet "hello und sorry but do you speak English" would help matters a lot towards "discretion" especially from those French ones on the "toward the ferry at Calais" stretch .. where they do target as they know folk want to catch a ferry or train

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Liebchen und

I hope you had a warm drink in a flask anyway



Wildy

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Conversing with foreigners is not something we British tend to do well admittedly, but that wasn't the point Wildy.
We don't tend to converse very well with authority figures either, even when we're in the wrong. Some people see the police as being their 'servants' and that they should therefore be subservient to them. The difference being that UK police officers will often just take the backchat, their continental bretheren won't, quite rightly IMHO.

No. But I wouldn't consider bad language and/or insults to aggravate a motoring offence. I would deal with the bad behaviour via contempt of court proceedings.



Lack of remorse is acceptable as an aggravating feature. Being rude to an officer or a JP is not lack of remorse.

Surely it is almost always indicative of a lack of remorse. To be remorseful one must acknowledge that one's actions were in the wrong, but rudeness indicates defiance.

Enough to know that s5 can be, and is, used by traffic cops to deal with this sort of situation.

It seems to be particularly effective when combined with a verbal warning for the motoring.

I have no problem with any of that. However using a ticket for a motoring offence to punish a driver for a behavioural offence isn't the way to go about it.

There are more than enough complaints from motorists that they are being victimised without that sort of thing.

It may be that police training for sentencing differs from that recieved by JPs. JPs are taught to sentence on the seriousness of the offence having regard to all the relevant factors.

Bad language and and a generally offensive attitude to a police officer in the execution of his ( or her) duty is unacceptable as far as I am concerned. But however you look at that sort of thing its not covered by any of the road traffic laws that I know of, and until it is it should be dealt with by means of those laws specifically designed for the purpose.

All the above assumes that the offence in question is a purely motoring offence. Things would be different if it was "road rage" or an offencecs against the person charge when a vehicle had been used as a weapon.


The first line of defence against the law is an ass should be by way of telling the politicians who make the laws.

After that its down to all of us to do what we can.

I would say that in the circumstances described its a clear indication of anger at being caught.

Whether or not there is remorse for the driving which caused him to be stopped would only become clear when he has got over his anger at being stopped.