Safe Speed Forums

I pondered some before I putting finger to mouse:

I believe that the CC of NWP is wrong to have used those pictures.

The whole thing about using this example of a speeders death reminded me of the worst pervasive type of propaganda, in that by holding up the most extreme example you imply that is the potential fate of all or that it is the norm.

He will no doubt have many pictures to chose from to demonstrate that flesh and metal and momentum don't mix, you don't need much more than walking pace and the wrong circumstances to reduce a human to a bloody pulp. There will be fatalities at 100 mph where the dead look like they are asleep and ones at 30mph that are unbearable to look at.

He chose this one because he is obsessed with speeding - I'm right in thinking he described a 'day off' spent catching speeders on his blog? - and he thought it fitted the bill - unlawful, recklessness and a shocking fate. It was a cheap shot and not what we should demand from a man in his office and with considerable resources at his disposal. Any professional in the business of encouraging better behavior could have told him such shock tactics rarely work.

And to compound his ineptitude he is now trying to deflect the whole mess on to the journalists he invited to the event!

I'm ambivalent about upsetting the family. The rider was a fool and a very selfish one, with responsibilities far beyond the ones he willfully ignored during his last ride.

Brunstrom seems unlikely to consider his position but surely his police authority should, as his actions have dragged policing in there area into disrepute.

Barkstar

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The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

As far as I can tell, this quote was from the reports after the inquest back in 2003 - which leads me to suspect that Mr Brundstrom did not show all the text when revealing the pictures to his invited audience, since it does not seem to have been quoted in full since.

It certainly does not appear to pertain to the riding offences.
For reasons given in my previous posts, I cannot agree that this is any sort of press witch hunt - like Mr Gibney's unfortunate demise, this situation has been engineered by Mr Brundstrom his self, then he has had the temerity to try and blame the press for the result of his bungling.

I'm not sure the term Buffoon is entirely apt - it implies a simple lack of judgement or foolish behaviour. I believe his behaviour is worse than merely foolish or lacking in judgement, as when faced with the backlash from the press, family and commentators, he has tried to blame others in a wicked attempt to save his skin which goes beyond mere buffoonery!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Oh yes Ernest, I agree completely, the man has shown himself time and again to be deceitful.

Could not have said it better myself

There are two issues here; Brunstrom and the man on the bike. We wouldn't be having this debate and more importantly that man would still be alive if he hadn't got the bike in the first place which is why I'm more focused on this.

Even if he had the right training on a bike, or any training at all, there's no saying he wouldn't have had the same fate because he most likely would. A motorbike of that calibre in young or inexperienced hands was the equivalent of giving a child a loaded gun - a gun for which he had no licence!

The shear cost of a powerful car and the necessary insurance effectively prohibits young people getting an equivalent car, thank goodness, otherwise I'm sure we would see TVR drivers wreaking havoc everywhere giving sports cars a bad name.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I fail to see where the cost aspect comes into it.
I can get a ducati (for instance) that does over 120mph for less than 10 grand, new.
Second-user for less than 6 grand.
I can buy a Corsa sport (1999) for less than 1500 quid.
And if you are going to drive witjout insurance, who cares about cost ?
Even better if you steal someone elses car.

Hmmm... Sorry, but I think you missed my point. I did say the equivalent and while I don't purport to know much about cars I don't think a Corsa Sport compares to the Super-Cars like a TVR, which I only use as an example.

I take your point that you can get a pretty quick old sports car for a few thousand pounds but if you check the insurance for a youngster just starting out, I think you'll find it's considerably more than the car itself. Not unattainable but very expensive and for all that money, you still don't have the ultimate.

Referring to the cost aspect, as an example, my friends Subaru Impreza complete with performance package puts out 304 BHP and gets to 60 mph in 4.3 seconds. That's good for a car but once again, compared to the Hyabusa or TVR, it's like a Model T Ford. My friends son would love to use it but the insurance for him would run into five figures! Money that he doesn't have, can't justify and wouldn't trust his son to drive anyway.

Sorry to woffle but I think the point I make stands. What I would like to know, and what I think is so important here, is how did the deceased man get this incredible superbike and ride it illegally and how could it have been prevented?

Bruntsrom's actions, behaviour and attitude is a disgrace to his profession. If could fly, he'd be a squadron leader.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/ ... aulgibney/

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

You could buy a ZZR1100 for 1500 quid and cruise along at 175mph if you wanted!

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

I think Brustrom should resign. His attitude towards others stinks. I think we should have elected chief constables to make them accountable.

As to the biker, he was clearly outside the law BUT he didn't deserve to die like that then have the images of his corpse used for propaganda purposes by an unaccountable civil servant.

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

There are people who an acid lecture works wonders with, however if the story is correct then this bloke would be the last person to be affected as he clearly disrespected any law, order or Police authority from the off.

Let's not forget that when we didn't have any cameras, road deaths and serious injuries were much higher than they are now. Safety improvements, vehicle engineering, etc are all irrelevant to this case, as it was all about a poor attitude on the part of the individual.

And let's not forget that before we had cameras road deaths where always on a steady decline. Since cameras were introduced road deaths have actually started to climb. It's only because the Dft and SCP's have started playing around with SI's that the figures look better. Speed cameras do nothing for road safety.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Perhaps they were.

Can you give us details of where to find the figures for (say) 1966, 1976, 1986 1996 and 2006 to compare?

Well, close enough:

1964 - 7,820
1974 - 6,883
1984 - 5,599
1994 - 3,650
2004 - 3,221

Thanks, but actually I asked if you give us details of where to find the figures.

The absolute numbers ignore changes in traffic volumes are are not a good indicator of the way that risk values are changing.



The red line is actual data. The yellow bar is trend and 95% confidence interval calculated from the period 1950 to 1994.

The deviation of the trend in the modern era represents around 10,000 unexplained road deaths to date. These deaths would not have taken place if the earlier trend had continued.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

But your trend continues downwards and hits zero somewhere around 2030, which is completely unrealistic, by any standards. There _must_ be a levelling off somewhere in a system where zero risk is an impossibility.

The 'big' changes have already been made. Until we get to the "next big thing", whatever that may be - motorcycle airbags, rubber bumpers, etc the changes are always going to be marginal, and offset by traffic volume increases, "bad" years, etc.

Until that technology is available and available cheaply, relative micromanagement is the only way forward, as we have experienced over the last 10 years. It's almost an experimentation phase!

It ist called manners und courtesy. I was asked if photos of my injuries could be used once. My family refused und we refused on Ferdl's behalf as well. They wanted to use them as a "speed issue". Had the photos been destined to show what happen if you drive whilst feeling poorly (as happen when man taken ill und collide with my car) or drive a defective vehicle - with tragic result as was the case with Ferdl who die when lorry with dodgy everything hit him at low speeds ..then perhaps. But even then .. you have to also take into account the other parties feelings und the lorry driver was suicidal apparently after Ferdl's fatal incident - und widow of man who struck my car with some force was also in severest guilt trauma of not stopping him from going to work for longest time.

So .. there are other considerations... as to how such release of data affect all parties involved.




But this was a PR meeting with JOURNALISTS. Journalists report things und editors go for publishing something they think in public interest... und there ist the public interest element of gory death as a result of rather - I think I had better call it - a "red misted ride" for the family's sake as they could well lurk on this site.


There was also the public interest element of a senior police officer calling a conference with the press - knowing full well they would publish the detail und the public interest of a senior police officer yet again having zero regard for family feelings - which ist absurd since he claim his crusade against drivers ist to prevent grief und trauma.. und not add to it all the more. Und the apparently naivety und poor judgement in doing this.

Ist a bit like the late Princess of Wales letting the press know her whereabouts und then moaning when they turn up to take photos of her.




As said .. I am aware that the family may lurk on this site.. ist why I call it "red mist" to be tactful

Whether or not he was legal or illegal und we have always pointed out that these are involved in most gory fatals. Mad Doc reports up most of them from the papers from the big 'burbs as we call them

But even so .. he did not deserve to die like that und the manner in which this conference was convened und the parading of that T shirt und so on ... seemed to pour scorn on the deceased which ist still a

Und the family had apparently not told the widow und her children exactly what happened to her husband as they judged it would be too much trauma for her to cope with at the time of his death..




Except they may not have been aware that this was so at time it went to press.. learning only of the gaffe when the family protested.

There are any number of photos which have the consent for use by all parties. Und that family should have been contacted in any case.

People are funny about the remains und memory of their loved ones.. even if not on "straight und narrow ... moral.. und ethical und so on". People objected to the removal of their child's organs at Alder Hey.. even having funeral services for these returned remains und burying or cremating und interring/scattering where main body laid to rest. Und we have the debacle now with organs removed from deceased workers from local nuclear power plant.. taken without consent.

Then there ist the issue over donated organs... und next of kin do not always consent even if the deceased express desire to that way.

So .. people in general thus have very strong ideas about the remains, images und memories of those they loved very much in life .. und this ist why they should have been contacted for consent first. I am sure that if the question had been put tactfully und image used very discreetly und tactfully .. in say .. a Speed Awareness or other educational course und not as subject in a press conference .. then that family may have gained some solace in knowing their beloved might have helped others learn from his experience of a needless death.

As it ist .. the image of his death has not helped anyone .. und worsened an already weak relationship between Brunstrom's policing style und his weary subjects in Brunstromia. und also caused a good working relationship between hard working cops und the public to deteriorate all the more

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

What you failed to notice was the the graph was plotted with a logarithmic vertical axis, following an exponential decrease, so your argument about reaching zero is a falacy. This also takes account of the decreasing rate of decrease with the decreasing level of fatalities.

May I suggest you have a look at some maths books about such trends.

Only, mein Lieber ... we do not know how this incident occurred..

Was road wet... diesel on road .... mud on road..

I ride a motorbike too. It make a lot of difference on handling any vehicle on wheels really .. but more so if on two wheels.

But this was not a road safety conference as such. It was a conference to which Brunstrom specifically invited the press who do not report nice things about his bosom chum und robotic soul mate - PC Gatso




There are a lot of numpties und morons und twazaks out there who sadly managed to pass a driving test by some fluke or other.

He may have even had a licence.. und been disqualified und thus unlicenced for some reason. He may have had motorbike licence revoked for some medical condition.. We do not know exactly why he was not licenced at the time. We do not know why he was on that bike that day und riding at speed as alleged.

We do not even know the speed at which the other car was travelling. Or level of culpability of the other driver who would also be traumatised by this story being used in this way .. as IG point out But kinetic force of each vehicle colliding was sufficient to decapitate him.




I think ist the emotion of referring to the fact he was not licenced which seem to imply all the blame to the rider. We do not know the exact circumstance of how this came to be in reality ... other than a press conference in which Brunstrom ist quoted by each journalist present as blaming the horridness of the death as result of speeding bike rider ..with much to do about an unfortunate wording on a T-shirt. It could be that there was diesel... black ice.. blown tyre.. faulty brake .. und errors on part of the other driver which all contributed to a nasty outcome for all concerned. But I speculate... on things we are not told of course. I just point out that we not got whole story .. but ist still bad taste und manners to use a photo without the courtesy of checking with next of kin und other party involved in this tragedy.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Und in any case .. a speed cam did not stop him nor did the fear of getting pinged stop him.

Had there been the constant threat of some lurking cop somewhere .. then maybe this would have deterred the ride or at least made the riding a bit more "compliant und less red misted" - after all he was a 40 year old Papa.

But it could have been that crisis some have over reaching 40 years . (though this ist now apparently the new "30" with "30" being the new "20" und not being classed as old farty until aged 90 years. )

IG did say once that his worst offenders on his patch are the born again wannabe hell's angel types

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!