Safe Speed Forums

Indicating right when they are going straight across, hesitating and breaking the flow, etc. As you say, a busy roundabout, especially a mini one, is going to be a frustration hotspot; drivers contributing to the congestion by poor driving are going to be the last straw for some. Where I live, even when busy, I see very little road rage, maybe we are just used to the traffic. Of course being outer London you never know who might have a knife or gun in the car so possibly that cools people off a bit.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Here in Shropshire, we don't get many serious cases of it, (the odd one or two reported in the paper but, often, most of that is someone overreacting IMO).

When I used to work around the blackcountry inthe early eighties, I used to witness more "irate" people than in Shropshire but then again, the standard of driving over that way is something to be believed.

Thankfully, I don't drive over that area nearly as much now.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

On saying that, a lot of the people from "over there" are probaly living "over here", now ...

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

I must admit, I've noticed certain places seem to be more volatile than others. For some reason whenever I drive through Boston (Lincs?) I see at least one bit of minor road rage.

Hmmm. You say you did an emergency stop in the Opener to this?

Later you say you think you flashed your lights at her? Mind can play tricks as you try to recall what happened.





You said you swore at her at first.. As soon as I see any wheels start to move - I am slowing down to stop as they just might If you had the time to do a long flash and sound horn - then you could have also been anticipating she just may make the error anyway and continued to ease off there.



Very possible. It may be that the horn and the lights "flummoxed" her as well. I would hope this girl learns something important from this incident



Most definitely![/quote]


If the person is very young then - they are either a learner or a novice Some L-cars do have Learner on the side panels with the name of the driving school. We used AA and RAC for our three qualified youngsters and the fosters we also funded in past. They all had L signs on the side of the cars. Second daughter's only 16 - but she will be eligible to learn in Az - so we've already looked ahead for her driving lessons over there

I agree it may be a good idea to stick a further sign on the side doors during the "family practice session"




You do not know if the parent was also making her "nervous" nor how many ADI lessons she may have had. Remember she would perhaps be getting used to a strange car after the learner vehicle and sometimes "family" is not the best driving instructor.

However, we think we did things the right way for ours. Already posted when our eldest and the first "twin set" learned to drive

We've always booked the lessons in a block of 6 daily and at different times of the day. Sometimes they had two lessons in one day - but our eldest three are lucky to be "summer babies" who had the long summer for learning.

Once they had these 6 lessons behind them - we took them out in our cars. They were learners in the Jags/Moggies/my Stag and then IG took them out for lessons with him. After this - they had a further 6 lessons with ADI - then took their driving tests. On passing - we forbade all driving for 24 hours to get the excitement out of systems .. and then continued to supervise for a few days. We chaperoned their first "solos" too at a healthy stealth. Thus - nothing wrong in parental lessons - but think we have duty of care all the same.

placed in small print as off topic.



I can understand you on this. We (me and Wildy) put up with a packet on another forum from one rabid nutcase - just for posting common sense values like COAST! MORE POLICE PLEASE...but also commenting that police are subject to same laws as the rest of us. The rabid nutter twisted it .. and has even been foul- typing us on other boards. By the way . the rabid nutter in question was not a police officer . "lawyer with the police" nor an legal expert in insurance but a known trollster whose posts have been traced to cut/pastes from various sites.

The only reason the person does this is perhaps because he or she or it has no counter-argument - so the only way it sees open to it as regards discrediting the opinion is to attack the poster's reputation. Just to make it clear - I do not think Pratnership is attacking for the sake of it. He or she is probably concerned about you and the number of incidents you have. The person trying to gun us down is doing so for a different reason: it supports speed cameras. We've blown the dogma apart instead of the Gatso :gatso: and delivered the COAST message before the SAC course! As we have perhaps managed to dent the finances as a result - they wish to shoot us in the butt (as we were solemnly informed by an Az police officer on the forum we've not joined over there and who already know all about us from posts made on here and on .. err PH - but also told "Bud you talk sense!" Pratnership - I am sorry if the way I've worded this has caused offence to you. I am trying to be "understanding" to Squirrel as I would hope to help him learn more and I can also understand your worries as well. I certainly do not want to offend either of you.



Hoping not to offend Pratnership and Squirrel .. but ..

Maybe if you each tried to keep things just a little less personal and when referring to past incidents discussed on other boards - maybe reflecting /evaluating on what can be learned from the various incidents with a view to their not happening again or diffused/dealt with better if something similar happens .. and be aware that it will never be exactly the same as each incident is unique to own set of circumstance



But in Pratnership's defence - you do seem to be unluckier than most in the number of near misses/or muppets you encounter.





INDEED - we must learn to evaluate each drive and learn from each error. We all make 'em. What seems OK to me .. will affect the other driver. I make sure that I acknowledge each courteous gesture with a smile and a wave (if safe to do so). If they make a mistake - sure I will curse for a second .. mutter "twazak" much to our kids' amusement and deal with the "problem or pereceived problem" they caused as safely as I know how to at the time.

If some one's sticking to the speed limit or driving marginally below it - I have no problems with that. I drive to the road conditions as they present themselves to me. That's what I am told "decently skilled drivers do" and I try to convey this when observing local IAM candidates on odd occasions.

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If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

SQUIRREL - HAVE SAID IT MANY TIMES BEFORE (know I'm SHOUTING -and it's on purpose) -HEAD OVER TO WHERE IG POSTED ON COAST , READ AND APPLY . No signs of L plates - didn't her driving give something away - like the NEED to give her some SPACE .

Mate - you need to SERIOUSLY start looking out for clues as to how to identify hazardous drivers - perhaps after passing a test , new drivers( such as you ) need to have x hours of driving with an ADI ,before being let out on their own .


I'm not preaching -they're go I but for some excellent advice from my mentors - my dad and my uncle - I'm only trying to pass on the experiences of 45+ years on the road ,in the hope that it saves someone some heartache .Both my mentors advised me -"treat all other drivers as fools and accident waiting to happen , treat their signals as false and their indications as dubious ,DRIVE ROUND CORNERS AS IF SOME FOOL will come round on the wrong side of the road ,and at all times look out for an escape route ,to place your vehicle in a position where if hit ,you receive minimal damage -learn the capabilities of your vehicle ,but never drive over 50% of them -that way you have excess safety built in , and then if all fails - you know what it can be expected to do "

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

So initially you didn't mention flashing your lights, then you mentioned it, now you are not sure?

This, coupled with the fact you had to do an emergency stop while you had time to sound the horn - a long note you say - (and maybe flash) says to me one of 2 things:

You were either going too fast. (just out of interest, what is your car - 210, or 170?)

You didn't react properly when you saw her wheels start to turn.



Ok, if you are not going to examine your own driving, please consider this.

While you might be driving in what you consider safe speeds, what is becoming obvious is that you are going a lot faster than most people expect.

While you went around that corner at what you consider a managable speed, did you come up upon that learner much faster than they thought?

Perhaps all the incidents you keep coming across is because you are suprising people, which is never a good thing to do on the roads.

I am aware you do a lot of miles, and drive what you consider is a fast car, and obviously you go along roads you travel reguarly on.

I think you should take allowances for other people. They might not know the road, they might have a slower car, they might be inexpirenced, or they might simply be a plonker.

Just think about the speeds, the ones you consider safe might well catch others unexpectedly. Accounting for a lot of the bad responses you get.

Just think on it, please.

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If you think everyone else around you is driving badly, perhaps it's time to examine your own driving.

I don't remember whether or not I flashed the lights. If I did then it may have been misinterpreted as a signal to pull out.

I did lean on the horn as I was braking hard, having already eased off and braked gently when I saw her at the junction with her wheels still turning. She then came to a halt before pulling away again - straight into my path.



Right now it's 170 and has been for the last 10 days or so as I wasn't able to fill up with V-Power diesel and had to fill up at Asda. I've since filled up with V-Power but I've misplaced my Bluefin handset so haven't been able to remap back to 210.



I reacted in the only way I could - plant both feet down hard and let the computer take over. Full emergency braking on an A4 (or a Merc C-class, BMW 3-series, in fact pretty much anything modern that's big and German) will tear your face off.

Either way I stopped short enough not to be in any danger - but she was at this point inside my "comfort zone".



What I will say is this:

I know that I'm used to something fairly large, pretty pokey with good handling.

I've also a couple of times recently had to drive a "lesser" car. Last October I spent 3 weeks driving a Y-reg 1.4 Fiesta. And March-April this year my A4 was off the road following a cam belt failure and I was driving a 1996 N-reg 2.0 Mondeo.

Neither of which had the power, the acceleration or the handling of the A4. Which is an eye-opening experience when you realise what some people are used to.

Driving something like that you get spoiled a little, and I'll admit that I'm sometimes probably guilty of the opposite of the headlamp flasher brigade (you know, the ones who irately flash their headlights when you dare to overtake them because their crummy little 1.1 Saxo would never make the next bend faster than 25mph... and their car's the best in the world, so... [1] ) in that I forget just how big the performance gap is between a big German saloon (pretty much any of the big 3 makes) and a 1.6 Focus. And I'm sat there behind someone in a 1.6 Focus at the lights thinking "oh get a move on" as the lights change and they "dawdle" [2] up to 50mph or whatever speed.

[1] Ok, don't take that too literally. There was a comment made on here some time ago about how drivers of "average" cars know that something big and powerful will for example accelerate faster, but they don't appreciate just how much faster.

[2] Relatively speaking of course. The A4 (again along with most other big German cars) picks up speed very quickly with only a light touch on the accelerator. My 2 litre Mondeo... doesn't.

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Magistrates rule #1: "Never let justice get in the way of a conviction."

What actually happened then? You need to tell the truth to be subject to peer review.



That differs from what you said earlier, nothing in any of your posts says anything about her stopping then starting again.

You also sound very sure about the flashing, even that you did a long flash and the reason why. I am at a loss here.

So what are you saying happened now? Presumably, if she did pull out, stop, then carry on, I take it something like this happened:

You were coming along, saw her look, but saw the wheels start turning anyway. You started gently braking, but not yet slamming on the brakes because you figured she had stopped.

But then she started moving again (perhaps due to this flash you might have done), and you then had to slam on the anchors.

Why is that so different from the other versions? Presuming I got that scenario right.

I didn't want a big spiel about German cars being great, I wanted you to think about how other road users might see it. I'm pleading with you, consider is seriously. Slow down, pay more attention to the roads. And do what botach says, give COAST another re-read.

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If you think everyone else around you is driving badly, perhaps it's time to examine your own driving.

Absolutely
And anticipate it so much that you can even offer them to go before you if you so desire ! Total control

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Sorry, off topic. But I'm curious.



What difference does V power make to whether your car is remapped or not?

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If you think everyone else around you is driving badly, perhaps it's time to examine your own driving.

Higher octane fuel can allow you to run more boost on a turbo which will give you more peak power. Assuming Squirrels car is a turbo of course, an extra 40bhp would be very unlikely otherwise.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Yes, but his is a diesel. It doesn't have to have v power fuel unlike petrols, so he could have remapped it whenever, I don't know why he had to fill with V power first.

He is driving a 2l turbo diesel (from the other threads).

Out of interest I looked up this Bluefin thing, rather expensive for just an extra 37 bhp (not sure where the 40 came from). £450

http://www.mybluefin.co.uk/index.php?op ... Itemid=135

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If you think everyone else around you is driving badly, perhaps it's time to examine your own driving.

V-Power is just a brand name, with unleaded it's 98 RON rather than standard unleaded which is 95 RON.

V-Power diesel is something different - from the research I've done it appears to be made by a gas-to-liquid flash distillation process, so it's a semi-synthetic fuel.

It burns cleaner, contains less free carbon (so less black smoke), virtually no sulpher etc.

At present only 2 of the fuel companies sell this in the UK, Shell as V-Power and BP as Ultimate. I'd seen all the ads for BP Ultimate Diesel and was sceptical about it until I accidentally filled up with it once instead of normal diesel. Thinking I'd just wasted 6 quid extra on fuel I drove off muttering to myself, then noticed within about 10-15 miles that the car was picking up speed a lot quicker... not only that but the average MPG started to increase.

5th Gear did a test with regular diesel against the synthetic stuff and apparently you gain another 10bhp with the synthetic stuff.

Back to the original question - if I'm running on a remap I always make sure I use synthetic diesel. Because boosting the power by approx 40bhp (I think the 210 figure is PS rather than imperial BHP) also increases stresses in the engine I'm more comfortable using the synthetic diesel as it's purer.

Makes sense to me anyway.

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Magistrates rule #1: "Never let justice get in the way of a conviction."

V Power petrol is 99 RON in fact, vive la difference!

I wish Shell wouldn't put V Power Diesel only on pumps, rather than having vanilla diesel alongside. It's really annoying in a company van when you queue for a pump and find it's only got the pricy stuff. It's not like they'd put 99 RON petrol and not 95 on a pump.

Are you sure she did not stall and then set off again? I still be crawling just in case, I would not begin to increase speed just because she appeared to be stopping at that point.




But I've been driving my father-in-law's stealthmobile on very odd occasions.. guy has the that Merc He insured for all of us to drive it whilst over here to help me and Wildy over what has since turned out to be a bit of an "epic afterbirth experience" . My wife's still fretting to drive it for herself.

But you'd have to be going some speed for an emergency stop to "tear your face off"



You should have dropped the speed of approach more as you could guarantee she would stay put.. or eased off . If I had had to stop - then I would have perhaps had a polite talk about the need to stop and COAST check and hopefully help her learn positively from the incident.... but without undermining her confidence or self- esteem.




Which is why the late Paul Smith pondered over the wisdom of allowing novices access to fast cars. Our kids did have lessons in our Jags and other toys all the same - but we went for decent modest Astras/Focus when providing them with their own wheels. The reason why we allowed our kids behind the wheels of the really "fast cats" was so that they could "feel the difference under our strict supervision". But a truly skilled driver will know the capabilities of his car and that of the other vehicles on the road. Our three kids know that their modest motors will not keep up with the "stealthmobiles" of the Jags and Mercs calibre etc on the A/bahn Likewise all the Germans driving cars across the whole range of motors on those derestricted motorways. A skilled driver should match his driving to whatever condition out there and if the little Saxo is taking a corner at 25 mph - then Jag behind it has to do the same .

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Indeed, but for some remapped petrols, you *have* to have petrol with a higher RON, otherwise it has the wrong ignition timing, or something similar I believe. I am rusty on this.

Diesel however, while you might not get the full performance increase, you can still use it on the remap without using the more expensive stuff. So there isn't actually any need to fill up with it first.


Anyway, back onto road safety. Can you remember what actually happened yet?

Have you put yourself in the shoes of a nervous driver that doesn't drive as fast? Imagine what they think when they see a car driving the speeds you are used to come round the bend, flashing and beeping and gesturing.

Heres an idea.

Next time you reflect on an incident, leave out thoughts of your car, their car, and just think about what happened.

While a cars performance is a factor in driving, I feel you are putting far too much thought into it.

You should never be driving to a cars limits (or your own), you should always allow a large gap to deal with the unexpected. Like events such as this.

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If you think everyone else around you is driving badly, perhaps it's time to examine your own driving.

I did wonder about this clarksonesque statement myself.

A max pressure stop on high mu can result in some pretty extreme deceleration and high forces on the driver, although it's worse as a passenger as you're not already braced against the pedal and have no steering wheel to brace against either.
As I've said before i'm sure most people in daily driving would consider braking to be harsh at a fraction of the decel level achievable from an emergency stop.

As an aside I'd also question anybody's ability to think and react during such a(n unexpected) stop although we're in the realms of adrenaline and reflex actions by this stage i suspect.

I admit to being a bit wary of Pratnerships kneejerk post for post response to anything Squirrel writes, but I think this is a fairly valid point.

Squirrel does seem to frame everything on the basis of his apprently extensive experience of driving and of 'performance' cars.
(No direct attack meant here, its a character of driver I've come across in several scenarios, and i'm afraid tend to have a natural suspicion of)

For overtaking (a manouvre who's legal opportunities are rapidly vanishing) clearly performance is a factor.
For avoidance and braking I suspect basic physics levels the options somewhat and alot more is to be gained from anticipation & reaction than relying on better performance.
Don't get me wrong I've no doubt (and direct experience) that good tyres, good chassis dynamics and a good ABS system can make a difference to stopping distances and emergency handling, but personally I'd rather not be relying on small percentage benefits or the accumlation of small percentage benefits to keep out of trouble.

Well Ed, I really do have quite a lot of experience driving "performance cars" and, guess what, I tend to drive them quite slowly for much of the time.

Why? Well:


You are pretty much spot on here. There are a decreasing number of opportunities to exploit the full capabilities of cars in safety and I certainly don't make a habit of demonstrating my car's potential just to "show off".

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.