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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:18 
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http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/home/ryder-cup-captain-colin-montogomerie-wins-carlisle-speeding-appeal-1.720474?referrerPath=news

News and Star wrote:
Ryder Cup captain Colin Montogomerie wins Carlisle speeding appeal

Published at 12:55, Tuesday, 15 June 2010

Golfer Colin Montgomerie won his appeal against a speeding conviction after a court ruled that the evidence against him was unreliable.

But Judge Peter Hughes QC, who sat in judgement on the case with two magistrates at Carlisle Crown Court, said it would be wrong for people to conclude that there is one law for the rich and another for everybody else.

His comment came after several court hearings in which the golfer, advised by celebrity lawyer Nick Freeman, challenged the conviction.

Mr Montgomerie was convicted of driving his BMW at 37 mph in a 30 mph zone on the A69 at Corby Hill, near Carlisle, last November.

The three points added to his licence brought his total to 12, which in turn earned him a six month ban under the toting up procedure.
He was also fined £850 with costs of £4,000.

Giving the result of the appeal today, judge Hughes said: “We have reached this decision with a degree of reluctance. The maintenance of public confidence in the reliability of the evidence used to support allegations of speeding is of vital importance.

“Few have the financial resources to mount a challenge to the evidence. Any perception that there is one law for those with the ability to dispute the evidence and another for everybody else would be wrong.”

The judge went on to say that the prosecution in the case had failed to establish to the court’s satisfaction that the reading taken by the police speed gun was accurate.

Neither Montgomerie, Nick Freeman, nor the golfer’s QC Peter Lodden were in court to hear the judgement.
In an earlier hearing, Mr Lodden argued that proper checks were not carried out on the LTi 2020 speed gun, as required under guidelines.

He also suggested that the operators “erratic” movements of the equipment could have caused the speed gun to give an incorrect reading, making the car appear to travel faster.

The appeal included video footage of Mr Montgomerie’s car on the day.

Andrew Perrie, for the prosecution had refuted that Montgomerie’s excessive speed reading was caused by the handling of it by the speed camera technician, saying that he was experienced and competent.

The judge today said that the driver of a second car, whose vehicle was clocked as doing 35mph on the day when Mongomerie was stopped, should be told the outcome of today’s crown court appeal.

Judge Hughes added that copies of the judgement should also be sent to Cumbria Constabulary Chief Constable Craig Mackey. Every year, Mr Montgomerie, the European Ryder Cup captain, who lives in Perthshire, clocks up thousands of miles behind the wheel as he travels to golf tournaments and events.


So much for Steve Callaghan's assertion that the LTI is used correctly at all times by the highly trained operators!!
Yet another infallible belief of his shot down!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:30 
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Judge Hughes wrote:
Giving the result of the appeal today, judge Hughes said: “We have reached this decision with a degree of reluctance. The maintenance of public confidence in the reliability of the evidence used to support allegations of speeding is of vital importance.

That last sentence is the reason the SCPs are prepared to lie about the equipment and it's use, which is all too often overlooked by magistrates who are taken in by the evidence of the SCPs and RSS!

Let us hope that more drivers become prepared to demand that the often flimsy evidence is put to the test, and that more magistrates are prepared to do the same when a defendant requires it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:47 
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I've scanned about 20 different articles on this item. I can't help but notice Montgomery/Freeman didn't actually dispute the speed reading (saying that, they weren't at that hearing, but still...)

It seems to me the case revolves entirely around the lack of corroborating opinion (a reasonable claim given the descriptions "...mind goes numb"), as opposed to proving an actual error from the LTI.
Does anyone know otherwise?

It is good to see folks are waking up to the risk of a bad speed reading (that risk is a genuine one), but I'm going to reserve technical judgement on this one, for now.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 14:03 
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Agreed - and PM'd!

BBC radio report says that the operator was pinging everything - including pedestrians.
Also the equipment was not held steady!

This is basic operator error, not a fault of the device, but if it helps encourage more to ask to see the evidence, then it has to be good!

Judge was critical, asking how the use of this raised speed awareness.

Go here http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/cumbria/hi/ and look for "listen Live" or "listen again" - the news is on the hour.

The most damning side to all this is that Steve Callaghan has always maintained that his highly trained operators used the equipment within the guidelines - now it appears that the judge, having seen the evidence thinks otherwise! :lol:

Yet another Callaghan infallible belief dented, while he continues to chew on his foot!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 20:01 
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I expect Greenshed will leap to Mr. Callaghan's defence shortly... :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 20:13 
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News and Star wrote:
...But Judge Peter Hughes QC, who sat in judgement on the case with two magistrates at Carlisle Crown Court, said it would be wrong for people to conclude that there is one law for the rich and another for everybody else...


And yet, that's PRECISELY the message that HAS been given out! All too often the difference between conviction and acquital seems to be the cost of the defence team :cry:

News and Star wrote:
Giving the result of the appeal today, judge Hughes said: “We have reached this decision with a degree of reluctance. The maintenance of public confidence in the reliability of the evidence used to support allegations of speeding is of vital importance.


Oh silly me! And there was I, naively thinking it was the maintenance of justice that was of vital importance! I mean, that's just dreadful! I hope the judge has been misquoted! In effect, it puts control of the populace above justice!


the judge wrote:
...“Few have the financial resources to mount a challenge to the evidence. Any perception that there is one law for those with the ability to dispute the evidence and another for everybody else would be wrong.”


...but it's happened again though hasn't it? a rich bloke has walked free... :roll:

News and Star wrote:
...The judge today said that the driver of a second car, whose vehicle was clocked as doing 35mph on the day when Mongomerie was stopped, should be told the outcome of today’s crown court appeal.

Why only on that day? Was it only on that day that the operator was using the equipment incorrectly? Don't know about anyone else but I can feel a bit of "reasonable doubt" creeping in here...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 20:56 
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News and Star wrote:
Giving the result of the appeal today, judge Hughes said: “We have reached this decision with a degree of reluctance. The maintenance of public confidence in the reliability of the evidence used to support allegations of speeding is of vital importance.


The judge has it completely the wrong way round.
While it's rightly seen as being unjust for a few rich people to get away with breaking the law simply because they're rich, it's arguably far more unjust that many, many more ordinary people are wrongly convicted simply because they don't have the resources to defend themselves.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 01:05 
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The Daily Mail article here provides a little more incite.
Daily Mail
James Tozer wrote:
James Tozer Last updated at 3:24 AM on 16th June 2010
.....Because speed guns - unlike fixed speed cameras - are prone to move in the hand of the operator, strict rules are meant to be followed to prevent inaccurate readings.
The officer is supposed to target only vehicles he suspects are over the limit, training the device's laser beam on the numberplate for a few seconds.
But video footage showed that Montgomerie's BMW was the third of three cars targeted in only five seconds as the beam 'swept' across them, Carlisle Crown Court was told.

In his case, the speed reading was triggered by the back light of his car.
In addition, civilian operator Christopher Griffin had been targeting everything that went past using his LTi 20-20 device, including pedestrians and even a jogger who was recorded at 6mph.
When asked why, he blamed boredom, saying: 'Sometimes your mind goes numb.'
In the absence of visual confirmation that Montgomerie had been speeding, Judge Peter Hughes QC yesterday ruled the readings were invalid.
'He was targeting literally anything he wished to that moved in front of him,' he said. ..........


I agree that this will make many question the viability of this process. It might encourage more to perceive that gatso's and average cams are not prone to this error however.
It really is about time this failed policy is binned. We know that good intelligent research, driver/rider education and road engineering are key to good road safety, so what is the point in carrying on with this numeric point'less' policy?
This civilian operator Christopher Griffin appeared to be targeting everything due to boredom, so he was failing to consider the seriousness of his job, nor follow the guidelines and treat every 'ping' with respect and "professional" ability. To take such a light hearted attitude toward such a responsible and serious position is disgusting.
Perhaps all those convicted should receive compensation for all the un-necessary stress and worry caused - (perhaps that should come out of his salary ;) ) !

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 02:19 
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Meanwhile the tax payer will pick up the £38,000 tab for legal costs, not the CPS employee, who proceeded with the case, in order to protect the reputation of the process, when he had access to the evidence that the manner in which the LTI was being used, was contrary to the guidelines!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 07:25 
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Steve wrote:
I've scanned about 20 different articles on this item. I can't help but notice Montgomery/Freeman didn't actually dispute the speed reading (saying that, they weren't at that hearing, but still...)

We all get very hung up on this point. A court case is about weighing up the evidence and deciding who has the strongest case. It is largely irrelevant as to whether the dispute or agree the speed reading, the job of the defence is to show that the evidence produced by the prosecution does not adequately prove this.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 09:20 
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Are these LTIs generally used with a tripod or handheld? If the latter then should it not be a requirement that they should all be used with a tripod or minimum a monopod to ensure there is minimum wobble from the operator?

I also the think there should be lower maximum acceptable ranges of evidence so cars aren't being checked so far away and it should be clear on the video that the vehicle was in view for a minimum length of time to prove the operator had time to form a prior opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:00 
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teabelly wrote:
Are these LTIs generally used with a tripod or handheld? If the latter then should it not be a requirement that they should all be used with a tripod or minimum a monopod to ensure there is minimum wobble from the operator?

I also the think there should be lower maximum acceptable ranges of evidence so cars aren't being checked so far away and it should be clear on the video that the vehicle was in view for a minimum length of time to prove the operator had time to form a prior opinion.

CSCP use tripods in the back of high roofed vans.

AIUI the video lasts the whole session. No doubt it is viewing the whole video which has led the judge to doubt the proper use of the LTI on this occasion - indeed, he has hinted that other drivers caught in the session may have their fines returned.

What has also been questioned in the past is whether the video is accurately aligned with the LTI - and in my opinion, the target in the view finder of the LTI and the video SHOULD match, removing any doubt that the vehicle in the frame might not be the one producing the reading.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 16:41 
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So the speed camera technician is “experienced and competent”..

Yeah, so are the highly trained traffic police who crash every year or surgeons who botch operations. Experienced and competent doesn’t mean infallible like they’re trying to suggest.


Mole wrote:
I expect Greenshed will leap to Mr. Callaghan's defence shortly... :wink:
The trouble is, (devil's advocate mode on), the perception by the general public reading that story will be very simple. He was speeding and he knows it but got off on a technicality, when what really needs to be challenged is how appropriate or inappropriate the limit is for the road on which he was travelling. :headbash:

The question is, or should be, was he or was he not driving dangerously?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 07:43 
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Colin Montgomerie speeding ban overturned http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23845551-colin-montgomerie-speeding-ban-overturned-in-another-victory-for-mr-loophole.do

My title is meant to be ironic. Despite the fact that the camera operator failed to use his equipment according to his rules the case is reported as a "loophole".

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 19:35 
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Mole wrote:
All too often the difference between conviction and acquital seems to be the cost of the defence team :cry:
When somebody famous gets a not guilty the assumption is that they bought their way out of trouble. Particularly so when the defence lawyer is somebody who doesn't shrink from publicity.
Every week in courts up an down the country ordinary lawyers put forward exactly the same defences on behalf of peopel who are not famous. Those cases don't sell newspapers and therefore don't end up on the front page.

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 Post subject: The Montgomerie Case
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:24 
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Not sure where on the Forum this post should be placed , so I will try here. I have read in some detail about Colin Montgomerie getting his speeding conviction overturned, and the whole issue makes me angry. The "civilian" operator, Christopher Griffin was shown to have been using the camera to target people without any regard at all for the correct procedures. Who is this bloke? A volunteer member of the public? Or does he work for a so called partnership and paid to do this or what? Since when has the Law allowed someone who is not a policeman to enforce speed limits? This is the police's job! Are they going to use civvies to catch burglars or investigate murder cases??

This bloke, when asked why he used the camera totally indiscriminately, said he was bored, saying "Your mind goes numb." Does it? If I had my way, it wouldn't just be his mind that was numb. His backside would be numb after I finished kicking it. This matter has only come out because a well known person got "done" and challenged the matter. Of the 390 other drivers recorded that day, how many have also been wrongly convicted/pleaded guilty? And how many times is this kind of thing happening all over the country because ordinary people almost never ask for evidence and just plead guilty by post?

Sadly, nearly everyone who gets a ticket pleads guilty and never asks for evidence. It's the psychological thing that inflicts most people, in that they think that because the authorities tell them something , then they must be right.

A further thought is that the prosecution were well aware of the incorrect procedures followed simply by viewing the video recording, yet they went ahead with this anyway . Are their minds also numb? Are prosecutors in motoring cases supposed to be experts on traffic law and police procedures or do they give the case to any lawyer regardless of his knowledge?

Moderator message: Post merged into relevant ongoing topic


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 18:18 
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Word on the street is that MR lOOPHOLE hired an ex Cleveland Traffic officer. Now an expert witness on Speed Cameras.. A number of issues were raided in Court......No checks on equipment......slippage....and no corroboration......... :clap:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 20:48 
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sirspeed wrote:
Word on the street is that MR lOOPHOLE hired an ex Cleveland Traffic officer. Now an expert witness on Speed Cameras.. A number of issues were raided in Court......No checks on equipment......slippage....and no corroboration......... :clap:


Going a bit off topic ( like I sometimes do) ,remember the who hah a while back on the Teletraffic stuff - and the reveations that the proprietors were ( according to the newspaper /tv story) ex traffic cops .

Looking at the post above ,looks like all ex cops don't have faith in the ability of the LTI -or perhaps he still retains his views on law and order that made him join up on the first place . :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 23:33 
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There were several aspectes to this case.

1.) The camera operator is supposed to form an opinion that the motorist is speeding before pointing the camera and pulling the trigger.

It was shown from the video that the speed gun was being pointed at too many targets in too short a time for this to have happened

2.) The camera is supposed to be kept steady on the target vehicle while the reading(s) are taken.

It was shown by the video that the speed gun was in fact being swept over several vehicles in quick succession

3.) The camera operators are supposed to be trustworthy individuals, expected to operate the device according to the manufacturers, and ACPO guidelines.

The video showed that in fact the operator was an incompetent arse who was so bored with the job he was being paid to do, he was targeting pedestrians and (according to the judge) having no affect on road safety and speed awareness!

Needless to say the risk of this being the case has been pointed out on these pages many times, but always denied by members of the CSCP management team!

The manufacturers of the LTI have employed an "expert" to rebut the findings of Dr Clark, who has identified that misuse can lead to errors.
Wiltshire SCP publish it on their web site here:
http://www.safetycameraswiltshire.co.uk/uplfiles/scientific_report_lti%5B1%5D.pdf
Daniel Gezari says in his condemnation:
Quote:
Clark’s demonstrations take place outside of the normal operating parameters of the intended
application, ignoring or intentionally disregarding the basic procedures and conditions
recommended by the manufacturer.

Clark’s demonstrations of anomalous events are conducted under specific conditions that are
unlikely to be encountered in a legitimate traffic law enforcement situation
. Anomalous results
would rarely be obtained by an operator who did not have prior knowledge of the specific
techniques and circumstances that can induce unreliable results with laser speed measurement
devices.
In reality, an unbiased, honest, and competent operator of the LTI 20-20 would
essentially never obtain the kind of false positive results that Clark leaves the reader to imagine are
commonplace. With only the most rudimentary knowledge of instructions for its intended correct
use, a sensible operator would consistently obtain valid results
.


Clearly even the LTI "expert" fails to anticipate just how dumb SCP employees can be!!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 23:05 
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you have seen the video then, personally i think there is too much being read into this

Ernest Marsh wrote:
There were several aspectes to this case.

1.) The camera operator is supposed to form an opinion that the motorist is speeding before pointing the camera and pulling the trigger.

It was shown from the video that the speed gun was being pointed at too many targets in too short a time for this to have happened




i notice you have dropped the "prior" :scratchchin: , pointing at a vehicle does not mean a speed is being taken

Quote:
2.) The camera is supposed to be kept steady on the target vehicle while the reading(s) are taken.

It was shown by the video that the speed gun was in fact being swept over several vehicles in quick succession


panning the camera is not taking a reading, montys car was third in a line of traffic, only 0.3/4 sec is needed to obtain a reading

Quote:
3.) The camera operators are supposed to be trustworthy individuals, expected to operate the device according to the manufacturers, and ACPO guidelines.

The video showed that in fact the operator was an incompetent arse who was so bored with the job he was being paid to do,



only the operator knows why he pulled the trigger so many times, 360 or so, how many were under 30mph, i once achieved 1200 in a 3 hour session, i can think of the following

1. new operator
2. new camera, testing the capabilities
3. traffic survey
4. mobile phone infringements
5. seat belt infringements
6. checking alignment

7. i got a reading off a squirrel once

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