Safe Speed Forums

Was alerted to this in Autoexpress Rear View this week...

Mark Freeman from Doncaster was at triffic lights on red when he saw an ambulance approaching from behind with Blues and Twos. Being a considerate driver he moved forward to give the Ambulance a clear route through, and was snapped by the red-light camera. South Yorkshire Camera Partnership and local magistrates were not impressed with his reason for crossing the line and he was given £60 fine, 3 points and lost £300 in wages while attending court.

So next time you are at a red light and a fire engine or ambulance needs to go past, do not on any account try to be helpful if there is any chance that a camera can get you. This includes Red Light cameras, Speed Cameras, Bus Lane Cameras, etc. Obviously petty road regulations are more important than saving lives that are actually in danger.

There are several references on the web:

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1087412
http://www.doncastertoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=786&ArticleID=1084700

Congratulations S Yorkshire, you've turned me 100% opposed to red light camera as well now.

Sounds familiar. There was a thread last year sometime about red light cams snapping drivers moving for emergency vehicles. It's a bit depressing to find out that we were right to be worried about it. I suppose you'd have to be pretty lucky to get the ambulance in the frame as well, but the scary thing is that they're not even disputing that. It seems that crossing the red light, even for an ambulance, is punishable, so what the hell, let's just hammer the poor sod. :

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I still can't quite believe this. How much of a sad, pathetic, little person would you have to be to bring a prosecution against someone in these circumstances? Is anyone still going to claim that magistrate's courts are not biased against drivers?

I think it's pure luck of the draw. Maybe you get sympathetic magistrates like in this topic, or maybe you get one like the sort who banned Stuart Harding for making a speed trap warning sign. You can never tell in advance whether you'll get the rational sort or a foam blowing car-hating maniac.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

If you do just sit there what's the chances they would do you for Driving Without Due Care and Attention, for "not noticing" the ambulance?

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Andrew.

Is this correct?


DfT confusing legal and safe again, numpties.

You aught to stay out of bus lanes as well. Earlier today I came across this. It's list of Home Office approved speed etc. detection equipment. Toward the bottom you will find.



So watch that bus, it may be watching you.

I haven't looked at the rules for a few years now, but I do believe that you are not legally obliged to move out of the way for an emergency vehicle (although plain common sense tells you that you do make way for an emergency vehicle if it is safe to do so).

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Exceptional circumstance.
The person should not have had to go to court in the first place
And the fact that he was found guilty is disgusting
I feel that the magistrates should be taken out side the court and publicly flogged

The answer to this, people, is political activity. Press your MP and councillors to look at either the precice wording of the law or its enforcement or both: Failing which, stand against them and get others to support you.

I did generally speaking support the use of red-light cameras. This just brings the whole lot into complete disrepute

Funny how this is a thread where JJ is conspicuous by his absence.

Are you reading this, Steve?

Is it better to:

(a) obstruct an ambulance, or
(b) get three points?

We really would like to know your views.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Well, I'm speachless - this is absolutely rediculous. OK fine, the camera itself can't distinguish between someone running the light and someone crossing the white line for a legitimate reason. But for the magistrate to uphold the conviction??! How would he have felt if it had been a member of his family who was waiting for said ambulance and died as a result of the delay? Would you call me suspicious for suggesting that the fines go some way to paying his wages?

Lets be reasonable - yes you're supposed to stop behind the line, but so long as you're not obstructing a pedestrian crossing or a junction, does it REALLY matter? Again and again ad infinitum, we should be catching CRIMINALS not people who make a simple mistake which affects no-one and causes no hazard at all.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I really hate this whole attitude of 'Oh we're so sorry but there's nothing we could do - it's the law' attitude from the DFT, CPS, and magistrates.

To start with, they should never have even considered the prosecution. Secondly, they could have dropped the case on public interest grounds.

Thirdly, the magistrates, if they really couldn't throw the case out, could have refused to add points to his licence as this is a clear case of a 'special resaon' not to. Before the pratnerships started up, I've seen cases where people did not get endorsments for less reason than this.

Highway Code Rule 194 (Emergency Vehicles) states:-

"You should look and listen for ambulances, fire engines, police or other emergency vehicles using flashing blue, red or green lights, headlights or sirens. When one approaches do not panic. Consider the route of the emergency vehicle and take appropriate action to let it pass. If necessary, pull to the side of the road and stop, but do not endanger other road users"

(My bold type)

Although this is a "rule" it's not in itself a legal requirement. Reading between the lines though, if you do not "endanger other road users" then crossing the line appears acceptable to me... Big difference between moving a couple of feet over the line to let the ambulance through and driving straight through the junction...

Presumably S Yorks police now accept that no one in their right mind will ever make way for them again in this situation due to their actions against this chap. Serves them right frankly, it's a disgrace.

This worries me
Yesterday I was stopped at lights between the bonnets of cars in L2 and L3 on my bike when a police van approached from behind in L3 with light flashing and siren whaling. The car in L3 did the right thing in my opinion and moved out of the way by crossing safely and moving over into L1 on the other side of the lights.

I was going to stay where I was as there was more than ample space for the van to pass me in L3 but was waved at and indicated to by the Vans passenger to also get out of the way witch I did before the van got to the white line.

This is happened in the hart of London on the Marylebone/Euston road at a junction I know to have red-light cameras. All the drivers imho acted safely and correctly from the car in L3 the police van driver and passenger and me in getting out of the way but what about the camera how will it see it.


To be honest it not so much the idea of getting 3 points of a fine that bothers me more the idea a brainless box will supersede the authority of a van load of police officers and the common senesce of all the drivers involved.

Well said BJ

This driver can rightly claim he was acting under police orders to cross the stop line. If he is prosecuted, he can claim he was incited to commit an offence by the Police...

As you say, common sense has gone completely. No police officer worth their salt would take any action against a driver in these circumstances, if they were careful and did not endanger other road users. PC Gatso is of course another animal...

Perhaps "JJ" would care to give us his considered opinion on this scenario?

A curmudgeon would say that he might not have needed to run the lights to get out of the way if he had been driving a normal vehicle, instead of an oil tanker on wheels like the Chrysler Voyager. It’s another downside of driving a jumbo car.

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I stole this .sig

WTF has that got to do with anything?

I truly believe basingwerk would try to start an argument in an empty room.

Yes - but they are not allowed to drive on the other side of the road to get through the red light either if cars are stationary in all lanes at the red light. Also most have a paramedic on board tending person being transported.

Come to think of it - nor are we. When we approach a red light - we are supposed to stop and only cross if other drivers stop to allow us. We cannot cut in front of traffic. If escorting - we go ahead of the ambulance and we check if its safe if a red light and we sit in the junction with the lights and the woo-woos - but ambulance driver still has to check for himself before crossing even if we are there with him. We then overtake the ambulance and proceed to next junction where we do the same thing.

Can sympathise - though. Tis indeed the difference between a real policeman and a computerised one. Problem really appears to be with a daft magistrates, clerk of the court, delays in the hearing, and CPS.



True - tis illegal and we can only do it if on a call. If there is an accident - we can get nailed for it - even if on duty with sirens a-wailing and lights a-flashing. But - would a real cop have busted the guy? Under the circumstances as reported:

cough - ahem - cough - discretion

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.